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__NOTOC__
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{| class="warning_red" style="margin:0 auto 10px;width:60%" cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0
!colspan=5 bgcolor=#FEE style="font-size:150%;"|<u>VOTING INSTRUCTIONS</u>
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!style="font-size:150%;"|<u>POLL ENDED</u>
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|bgcolor=#FEE|<big>
|style="text-align:center"|<big>The poll had been closed.</big>
*Please enter your opinion below the heading '''Your Opinion Below'''
*'''For your vote to be qualified, please insert your vote (option text or number) beside or after your name in clear implication.''' The list of voting options are:
**1 - Renaming of MAN ND323F/MAN NL323F with Euro Emissions (SG2017C Demonstrator)
**2 - Renaming of MAN ND323F/MAN NL323F with Euro Emissions (SG2017C Not a Demonstrator)
**3 - Renaming of Scania K230UB without Euro Emissions
**4 - No Change
**5 - Abstain / To be discuss at a later date.
*'''Do note that you may cast your vote for more than 1 option.'''
</big>
|}
|}


==Poll Result==
==Result==
{{SgWiki talk:Renaming of MAN ND323F/MAN NL323F/SCANIA K230UB (Poll/Discussion)}}
Majority of the editors disagreed with the renaming exercise due to the following reason:
*Scania K230UB had different exterior parts therefore warrant a differentiation in emission.
*MAN ND323F had the same exterior layout, therefore the naming does not include emission.
 
With that in mind, it is puzzling to see that why editors have multiple definition of "variants". MAN NL323F (A22) had two distinct bodywork, MAN Lion City Hybrid bodywork for Euro V and MAN Lion City bodywork for Euro VI, under the majority definition, it should be rename with the emission standard. However, editors voted against such a naming convention.
 
If we going to rename MAN NL323F which follows Scania K230UB syntax, editors may voice a second debate that why MAN ND323F don't follow suit in the name of standardisation.
 
If we going to rename both MAN NL323F (A22) and MAN ND323F (A95) or rename Scania K230UB, than is a problem. Decision was made based on the minority and that not the norm. Citing the previous citaro debate, the decision to rename SMRT Production Batch 1 & Batch 2 into a common Batch SMRT takes into account about preventing mix-up in 'A'/'B' notation for different operators' spec where the majority prefer for Batch 1A/1B. But the action to not take the majority view does not justify itself in this context.
 
Given such a situation, '''the final result will be announced after defining the meaning of variant at the next debate - [[SgWiki:Definition of bus variant (Poll/Discussion)|definition of bus variant''']].


==Starter Post==
==Starter Post==
Line 51: Line 53:


--Litlah
--Litlah
*1 - Renaming of MAN ND323F/MAN NL323F with Euro Emissions (SG2017C Demonstrator)


===Renaming of Scania K230UB/MAN NL323F/MAN ND323F===
===Renaming of Scania K230UB/MAN NL323F/MAN ND323F===
Line 56: Line 59:


~ Themystery
~ Themystery
*'''Voted at Opinion 4'''


==Your Opinion Below==
==Your Opinion Below==
===Opinion 1===
===Opinion 1===
I support this change as it can be an opportunity to be standardised in a similar way as SBS Transit's Scania K230UBs, which are classified in the same manner.
Hi all,


The only doubt I have is about the classification of SG2017C as the Euro VI MAN ND323F demonstrator as it is not really considered a demonstrator. I am not sure what other people may think, but it sounds weird to classify that as a demonstrator. Nonetheless, I fully support this renaming exercise for the MAN ND323Fs.
My small input would be to remain the pages as they are now. Mainly because (imo) it does not make much sense to change the existing naming of KUB pages, just to accomodate the A95s.


I feel that there should be some form of standardising on the format, so not just MAN ND323Fs and Scania K230UBs, but across all public bus models in Singapore. I suggest that all models should adhere to the same format as much as possible so that readers can understand the page and site as a whole better.
Because when the KUBs were purchased previously, the jump in Euro IV to Euro V standards on the KUBs were also accompanied with obvious bodywork changes (such as the slats in the radiator panels, EDS, Aircon pods, angular shape of the rear quarter panel, dashboards, granny seats/side facing seats at the front etc)


As the label "Variant" implies, it is to differentiate different batches of bus models. Currently, they are already differentiated by bodywork. I do not see why these bus models cannot be fully differentiated by emission. After all, it is also a way of differentiating different batches better.
Whereas for the A95s, we're talking about changes in emissions standards, without clear & consistent distinct differences in bodywork / any other details that are consistent with the jump in emissions (thanks to LTA).


Overall, I support '''Option 2''' or '''Option 3'''. As I feel that this is an important issue, I also support '''Option 5''' on deferring the changes should there be any need to do so. However, the deferment should not take too long as this issue should still be rectified sooner or later.
So if you want to rename the MAN bus pages, then you should rename only the MAN pages. Leave the KUB pages as they are now. Simplifying the KUBs in the same format as the A95s disregards the obvious changes between the Euro 4 & Euro 5 KUBs.


~ Themystery
Cheers,
SBS9631X
*4 - No Change


===Opinion 2===
===Opinion 2===
It is completely unnecessary to rename the A95s according to their emissions.  
Not necessary, it would remain the same.


SG2017C is ordered under the same batch as SG5800M - SG5920A with a different set of internal specifications.  
SG2017C was ordered as part of the batch (SG5800M - SG5920A) but with a different set of internal specifications.


The bus should not be labelled as a Euro VI demonstrator since it carries the same bodywork as the later batch 3 units (SG5830B - SG5920A) with the same interior specifications.
GoAheadAmbassador
*4 - No Change


Also, it is unnecessary to modify the KUB headings as their specifications are standardised according to their respective orders.
===Opinion 3===
'''Option 1''' will be the most appropriate choice in my opinion. If Scania KUB can be classified by emissions, why not do the same for MAN A95 now that MAN A95 has more batches than KUB?
SG2017C is technically the Euro 6 demonstrator although it has the same specifications as the Euro 5 Batch 3 A95s so it will be more appropriate to put SG2017C on the Euro 6 Batch 1 page but as a demonstrator rather than on the Euro 5 Batch 3 page (since it isn't Euro 5 anyway and it will be awkward to have a Euro 6 bus listed in a Euro 5 page which will lead to confusion).


We will discuss and reconsider about this matter when the registration of the 50 3-Door Euro 6 A95s commence.
Peace & Harmony
*1 - Renaming of MAN ND323F/MAN NL323F with Euro Emissions (SG2017C Demonstrator)
 
===Opinion 4===
I support this change as it can be an opportunity to be standardised in a similar way as SBS Transit's Scania K230UBs, which are classified in the same manner.


~ SMB315C
The only doubt I have is about the classification of SG2017C as the Euro VI MAN ND323F demonstrator as it is not really considered a demonstrator. I am not sure what other people may think, but it sounds weird to classify that as a demonstrator. Nonetheless, I fully support this renaming exercise for the MAN ND323Fs.


===Opinion 3===
I feel that there should be some form of standardising on the format, so not just MAN ND323Fs and Scania K230UBs, but across all public bus models in Singapore. I suggest that all models should adhere to the same format as much as possible so that readers can understand the page and site as a whole better.
Not necessary, even though 2017C is somewhat a demonstrator to me, I feel that the current classification should remain as it was procured under Batch 3 (SG5800M - SG5920A). Appearance-wise, it is no different in both exterior and interior too like its Euro V mates.


~ Razerboii
As the label "Variant" implies, it is to differentiate different batches of bus models. Currently, they are already differentiated by bodywork. I do not see why these bus models cannot be fully differentiated by emission. After all, it is also a way of differentiating different batches better.


===Opinion 4===
Overall, I support '''Option 2''' or '''Option 3'''. As I feel that this is an important issue, I also support '''Option 5''' on deferring the changes should there be any need to do so. However, the deferment should not take too long as this issue should still be rectified sooner or later.
Yes i do agreed for the Euro V Batch 1, 2 & 3 and Euro VI Batch 1 & 2. SG2017C as demonstrator. This is to prevent confusion.


~ Erwinlee95
~ Themystery
*2 - Renaming of MAN ND323F/MAN NL323F with Euro Emissions (SG2017C Not a Demonstrator)
*3 - Renaming of Scania K230UB without Euro Emissions
*5 - Abstain / To be discuss at a later date.


===Opinion 5===
===Opinion 5===
I disagree in regards to the renaming. Despite the difference in transmissions, SG2017C has the same bodywork and interior specifications as the other Batch 3 units in terms of the later facelift design.
Option 4.


All in all, although I recognise the existence in confusion of the naming of current batches, I think we should put this A95 batch sorting topic to a later date when all of the 2-door A95s have completed their registrations. In this way, it is easier for us to sort out the batches in a better way instead of a time when Batch 5 A95 deliveries & registrations are ongoing.
Indicating SG2017C as a Euro 6 demonstrator will only create confusion as<br>
* '''It is ordered under the third batch of A95 consisting of 122 buses'''
* Carries same bodywork & interior specifications as the later batch 3 units


~ Wekelwrady
Makes no sense to rename the KUBs.
 
~ SMB315C
*4 - No Change


===Opinion 6===
===Opinion 6===
I think that we should just leave the page as it is as SG2017C isn’t really a demo given the fact that the bus shares many similar traits as its Batch 3 counterparts and renaming it will cause more confusion.
I'll go with option 3. It will create more confusion in indicating the Euro emissions to rookies and new editors. To safeguard the interests of sgwiki,I suggest to retain the same format as the MAN ND323F / MAN NL323F.
 
Thanks and would like to hear from you soon regarding this.  


Best regards,


~SG5064X
SimonLim88
*3 - Renaming of Scania K230UB without Euro Emissions


===Opinion 7===
===Opinion 7===
I'll pick option 3 as it will be better to standardize everything. Without standardization will lead to confusion.
Erwinlee95
*3 - Renaming of Scania K230UB without Euro Emissions


leave both the scania and man A95 the way they currently are
===Opinion 8===
will prefer to remain as it is.
 
Lemon1974
*4 - No change
 
===Opinion 9===
Prefer to keep it as it is to prevent confusion


SBS8478D
SBS2652G
*4 - No change


===Opinion 8===
===Opinion 10===
Hi all,
The batches of Scania K230UBs are highly distinguished by their registration dates, reg numbers and interior specifications, whereas the '''Euro emissions, EDS model, Aircon model''' are linked characteristics that add on to the '''distinct differences''' between Euro IV and Euro V variants of the K230UBs. Thus the current "Scania K230UB (Euro __ Batch __)" is still a reasonable format and does not require any change.


My small input would be to remain the pages as they are now. Mainly because (imo) it does not make much sense to change the existing naming of KUB pages, just to accomodate the A95s.
As for the MAN ND323Fs and NL323Fs, I would not support the renaming according to the Euro emissions, as SG2017C is the sole and main reason for having the same bodywork and interior specifications as the Batch 3 A95s, which are '''largely Euro V'''. If there were no SG2017C, I would have agreed for standardisation to Euro emissions, however, since 2017 till present day, this isn't the case.


Because when the KUBs were purchased previously, the jump in Euro IV to Euro V standards on the KUBs were also accompanied with obvious bodywork changes (such as the slats in the radiator panels, EDS, Aircon pods, angular shape of the rear quarter panel, dashboards, granny seats/side facing seats at the front etc)
Wekelwrady
*4 - No Change


Whereas for the A95s, we're talking about changes in emissions standards, without clear & consistent distinct differences in bodywork / any other details that are consistent with the jump in emissions (thanks to LTA).
===Opinion 11===
Leave all as it is


So if you want to rename the MAN bus pages, then you should rename only the MAN pages. Leave the KUB pages as they are now. Simplifying the KUBs in the same format as the A95s disregards the obvious changes between the Euro 4 & Euro 5 KUBs.
TIB965Z
*4 - No change


Cheers,
==Before Vote Voided / Kept discussion==
SBS9631X (4 - No Change)
===Discussion 1===
Not necessary, even though 2017C is somewhat a demonstrator to me, I feel that the current classification should remain as it was procured under Batch 3 (SG5800M - SG5920A). Appearance-wise, it is no different in both exterior and interior too like its Euro V mates.


===Opinion 9===
~ Razerboii
Not necessary, it would remain the same.


SG2017C was ordered as part of the batch (SG5800M - SG5920A) but with a different set of internal specifications.
===Discussion 2===
I think that we should just leave the page as it is as SG2017C isn’t really a demo given the fact that the bus shares many similar traits as its Batch 3 counterparts and renaming it will cause more confusion.


GoAheadAmbassador
~SG5064X


===Opinion 10===
===Discussion 3===
'''Option 1''' will be the most appropriate choice in my opinion. If Scania KUB can be classified by emissions, why not do the same for MAN A95 now that MAN A95 has more batches than KUB?
leave both the scania and man A95 the way they currently are
SG2017C is technically the Euro 6 demonstrator although it has the same specifications as the Euro 5 Batch 3 A95s so it will be more appropriate to put SG2017C on the Euro 6 Batch 1 page but as a demonstrator rather than on the Euro 5 Batch 3 page (since it isn't Euro 5 anyway and it will be awkward to have a Euro 6 bus listed in a Euro 5 page which will lead to confusion).


Peace & Harmony
~ SBS8478D

Latest revision as of 20:35, 13 January 2021

!
POLL ENDED
!
The poll had been closed.

Result

Majority of the editors disagreed with the renaming exercise due to the following reason:

  • Scania K230UB had different exterior parts therefore warrant a differentiation in emission.
  • MAN ND323F had the same exterior layout, therefore the naming does not include emission.

With that in mind, it is puzzling to see that why editors have multiple definition of "variants". MAN NL323F (A22) had two distinct bodywork, MAN Lion City Hybrid bodywork for Euro V and MAN Lion City bodywork for Euro VI, under the majority definition, it should be rename with the emission standard. However, editors voted against such a naming convention.

If we going to rename MAN NL323F which follows Scania K230UB syntax, editors may voice a second debate that why MAN ND323F don't follow suit in the name of standardisation.

If we going to rename both MAN NL323F (A22) and MAN ND323F (A95) or rename Scania K230UB, than is a problem. Decision was made based on the minority and that not the norm. Citing the previous citaro debate, the decision to rename SMRT Production Batch 1 & Batch 2 into a common Batch SMRT takes into account about preventing mix-up in 'A'/'B' notation for different operators' spec where the majority prefer for Batch 1A/1B. But the action to not take the majority view does not justify itself in this context.

Given such a situation, the final result will be announced after defining the meaning of variant at the next debate - definition of bus variant.

Starter Post

Renaming of MAN ND323F

May I suggest labelling the A95 Batches by emissions, in a way like the K230UBs?

ie. Euro V Batch 1 (currently Batch 1): SMB5888H (Euro V Demonstrator); SMB5889E - SMB5904U

Euro V Batch 2 (currently Batch 2): SG5740C - SG5799J

Euro V Batch 3 (currently Batch 3): SG5800M - SG5920A

Euro VI Batch 1 (currently Batch 4): SG2017C (Euro VI Demonstrator) SG5921Y - SG6171M

Euro VI Batch 2 (currently Batch 5): SG6172K onwards

Such labelling allows to easily differentiate: - Specifications (SMRT for Euro V; LTA for Euro VI) - Euro VI buses being purchased in different orders from Euro V counterparts

Other changes include: - SG2017C labelled as Euro VI Demonstrator, carrying identical chassis specifications to newer Euro VI units and hence labeled under "Euro VI Batch 1" instead.

I hope this suggestion can open an discussion, within administrators as well as users to open up comments on personal viewpoints, thanks.

--Litlah

  • 1 - Renaming of MAN ND323F/MAN NL323F with Euro Emissions (SG2017C Demonstrator)

Renaming of Scania K230UB/MAN NL323F/MAN ND323F

In the event that this renaming exercise does not take place, I would like to instead recommend that the Scania K230UBs be renamed to the same format as the current format for the MAN ND323F instead. This is because it has to be standardised either ways, just depending on which one gives in to the other. Meaning, either classify by all bus models by emissions first or do not classify the emissions at all.

~ Themystery

  • Voted at Opinion 4

Your Opinion Below

Opinion 1

Hi all,

My small input would be to remain the pages as they are now. Mainly because (imo) it does not make much sense to change the existing naming of KUB pages, just to accomodate the A95s.

Because when the KUBs were purchased previously, the jump in Euro IV to Euro V standards on the KUBs were also accompanied with obvious bodywork changes (such as the slats in the radiator panels, EDS, Aircon pods, angular shape of the rear quarter panel, dashboards, granny seats/side facing seats at the front etc)

Whereas for the A95s, we're talking about changes in emissions standards, without clear & consistent distinct differences in bodywork / any other details that are consistent with the jump in emissions (thanks to LTA).

So if you want to rename the MAN bus pages, then you should rename only the MAN pages. Leave the KUB pages as they are now. Simplifying the KUBs in the same format as the A95s disregards the obvious changes between the Euro 4 & Euro 5 KUBs.

Cheers, SBS9631X

  • 4 - No Change

Opinion 2

Not necessary, it would remain the same.

SG2017C was ordered as part of the batch (SG5800M - SG5920A) but with a different set of internal specifications.

GoAheadAmbassador

  • 4 - No Change

Opinion 3

Option 1 will be the most appropriate choice in my opinion. If Scania KUB can be classified by emissions, why not do the same for MAN A95 now that MAN A95 has more batches than KUB? SG2017C is technically the Euro 6 demonstrator although it has the same specifications as the Euro 5 Batch 3 A95s so it will be more appropriate to put SG2017C on the Euro 6 Batch 1 page but as a demonstrator rather than on the Euro 5 Batch 3 page (since it isn't Euro 5 anyway and it will be awkward to have a Euro 6 bus listed in a Euro 5 page which will lead to confusion).

Peace & Harmony

  • 1 - Renaming of MAN ND323F/MAN NL323F with Euro Emissions (SG2017C Demonstrator)

Opinion 4

I support this change as it can be an opportunity to be standardised in a similar way as SBS Transit's Scania K230UBs, which are classified in the same manner.

The only doubt I have is about the classification of SG2017C as the Euro VI MAN ND323F demonstrator as it is not really considered a demonstrator. I am not sure what other people may think, but it sounds weird to classify that as a demonstrator. Nonetheless, I fully support this renaming exercise for the MAN ND323Fs.

I feel that there should be some form of standardising on the format, so not just MAN ND323Fs and Scania K230UBs, but across all public bus models in Singapore. I suggest that all models should adhere to the same format as much as possible so that readers can understand the page and site as a whole better.

As the label "Variant" implies, it is to differentiate different batches of bus models. Currently, they are already differentiated by bodywork. I do not see why these bus models cannot be fully differentiated by emission. After all, it is also a way of differentiating different batches better.

Overall, I support Option 2 or Option 3. As I feel that this is an important issue, I also support Option 5 on deferring the changes should there be any need to do so. However, the deferment should not take too long as this issue should still be rectified sooner or later.

~ Themystery

  • 2 - Renaming of MAN ND323F/MAN NL323F with Euro Emissions (SG2017C Not a Demonstrator)
  • 3 - Renaming of Scania K230UB without Euro Emissions
  • 5 - Abstain / To be discuss at a later date.

Opinion 5

Option 4.

Indicating SG2017C as a Euro 6 demonstrator will only create confusion as

  • It is ordered under the third batch of A95 consisting of 122 buses
  • Carries same bodywork & interior specifications as the later batch 3 units

Makes no sense to rename the KUBs.

~ SMB315C

  • 4 - No Change

Opinion 6

I'll go with option 3. It will create more confusion in indicating the Euro emissions to rookies and new editors. To safeguard the interests of sgwiki,I suggest to retain the same format as the MAN ND323F / MAN NL323F.

Thanks and would like to hear from you soon regarding this.

Best regards,

SimonLim88

  • 3 - Renaming of Scania K230UB without Euro Emissions

Opinion 7

I'll pick option 3 as it will be better to standardize everything. Without standardization will lead to confusion.

Erwinlee95

  • 3 - Renaming of Scania K230UB without Euro Emissions

Opinion 8

will prefer to remain as it is.

Lemon1974

  • 4 - No change

Opinion 9

Prefer to keep it as it is to prevent confusion

SBS2652G

  • 4 - No change

Opinion 10

The batches of Scania K230UBs are highly distinguished by their registration dates, reg numbers and interior specifications, whereas the Euro emissions, EDS model, Aircon model are linked characteristics that add on to the distinct differences between Euro IV and Euro V variants of the K230UBs. Thus the current "Scania K230UB (Euro __ Batch __)" is still a reasonable format and does not require any change.

As for the MAN ND323Fs and NL323Fs, I would not support the renaming according to the Euro emissions, as SG2017C is the sole and main reason for having the same bodywork and interior specifications as the Batch 3 A95s, which are largely Euro V. If there were no SG2017C, I would have agreed for standardisation to Euro emissions, however, since 2017 till present day, this isn't the case.

Wekelwrady

  • 4 - No Change

Opinion 11

Leave all as it is

TIB965Z

  • 4 - No change

Before Vote Voided / Kept discussion

Discussion 1

Not necessary, even though 2017C is somewhat a demonstrator to me, I feel that the current classification should remain as it was procured under Batch 3 (SG5800M - SG5920A). Appearance-wise, it is no different in both exterior and interior too like its Euro V mates.

~ Razerboii

Discussion 2

I think that we should just leave the page as it is as SG2017C isn’t really a demo given the fact that the bus shares many similar traits as its Batch 3 counterparts and renaming it will cause more confusion.

~SG5064X

Discussion 3

leave both the scania and man A95 the way they currently are

~ SBS8478D